AH: So welcome. And today, I’m talking with Jason Goopy, who is an internationally recognised music educator, lecturer and researcher based at the Edith Cowen University near Perth in Western Australia. Why I thought you’d be interested to hear from Jason is that he has been researching what happens when young people take part in music education that’s shaped through trauma informed positive psychology or positive education, and last year, he published a paper about this in music education research. So welcome Jason. It’s absolutely lovely to have you on the podcast. And thank you for navigating the time zones and joining me, I think pretty late in the evening where you are?
JG: Hello and thanks so much for having me. It is wonderful to be speaking with you, Anita, and it is late in the evening here in Perth, Australia, but the world keeps spinning. So I’m very happy to be meeting with you.
AH: So I’ll just start off by asking, can you tell me briefly, how did you end up where you are today, and why is this particular area of research important to you?
JG: So I’ve been teaching music in Australian school, university and community settings for over 20 years, and working in teacher education for over 15 years, and I love teaching music and particularly witnessing the deep and meaningful impact and joy that learning music can have on people and their communities. So I completed my PhD at the University of Queensland while working full-time in combined and primary secondary schools, and I investigated the role of music and school music education in supporting the identity work of children and adolescents that I was teaching at the time. And the stories of these young people revealed over and over again that learning music was helping these students live healthy lives. So this is really where my interest in learning music and wellbeing science began. So from here, my research agenda has really focused on how music engagement and learning can support the wellbeing of young people in a range of contexts, and how these educators can be supported. I was extremely fortunate to be a recipient of a Fulbright scholarship hosted at Teachers College, Columbia University, researching how music education in New York City supports the wellbeing of young people. And that was just such an incredible experience that I’ve just returned from. And I guess all of this research matters because young people are living in an increasingly complex world and experiencing multifaceted challenges, and this includes a global mental health crisis. We know now that suicide is a leading cause of death for young people, and it’s correlated with youth mental illness. And what we are starting to recognise is that music education is a creative solution to this problem. It’s community based, it’s cost effective and a non-medicalised solution to supporting young people to live healthy and happy lives.
AH: That’s really interesting to hear, Jason. I think a lot of the readers will really understand your point of view, and where you’re coming from about that. And I think that a lot of music educators are finding that in their own practice, that there’s a greater level of need in terms of mental health and wellbeing and neurodivergent needs. And I think everybody’s sort of navigating that at the moment. I suppose in terms of your research, we should probably start with definitions. So what do you mean by what you’ve referred to in your research as trauma informed positive education?
JG: So trauma informed positive education is a blending of two different approaches. The first is trauma informed education, which has also been recognised as trauma sensitive or trauma aware approaches, and essentially, this kind of work is supporting educators to understand, act and respond in ways that help alleviate the impact of trauma on students. Trauma we are learning can affect anyone. Up to two thirds of young people aged 13 to 17 have had exposure to a potentially traumatic event. And when we think about trauma generally, we’re thinking about two types, simple and complex. And simple trauma involves a single event, complex trauma involves prolonged, repeated experiences of abuse or neglect. And young people experiencing homelessness, those under the care of government housing, those in contact with the criminal justice system, refugees, LGBTQIA+ people. And in Australia, Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander peoples are disproportionately affected. And in this work, we’re not expecting teachers to provide clinical support. That’s not their role, but we do believe they can benefit from being therapeutically informed. So that’s the first aspect of trauma informed positive education, is drawing upon trauma informed practice. The second part is positive education, and this is the application of positive psychology, which is the study of optimal human flourishing in education settings. It’s typically a strengths based approach that positions every student as inherently offering strengths, regardless of their background, and the teacher’s role is to build on these strengths. So trauma informed positive education, also known as TIPE, as its acronym, T, I, P, E, blends both approaches. So rather than viewing young people’s behaviors through a deficit lens, TIPE reframes them as opportunities for individual and systemic support underpinned by equity, compassion and care. And the TIPE, I guess, approach or framework, offers three developmentally sequence domains. The first is increasing self- regulation abilities. The second is increasing relational abilities using attachment and attunement strategies. And the third is building psychological resources for wellbeing using positive psychology, and this was originally developed for students with complex and unmet needs, but we are seeing now that it’s been found to benefit all students.
AH: Absolutely. And I guess it’s quite difficult to describe what that looks like in the classroom, but I wonder if you could just give us a hint of how a teaching practice would slightly change in order to build in this practice.
JG: I think a lot of these issues that are arising from trauma essentially occurring outside of the classroom, that students, of course, are bringing with them their personal story into the classroom, and that’s when we can start to see glimpses of their outside world through learning. Music in particular is a great way of self-expression and letting oneself be vulnerable and opening up to the world. That’s particularly where these kind of issues are seen. But I think what can this look like in a classroom for a teacher? Well, primarily, it’s a strengths based approach. At its simplest level, it’s really looking for the best that every person, every student, can offer. And it might not be that they come to a music classroom having a deep technical knowledge of an instrument, for instance, but it might be that they’re incredibly enthusiastic about it, and so at a really basic level, how can we harness that interest, that curiosity, that captivation of music, and help a young person through learning music become their best selves?
AH: Is there any sense that it would be helpful for a teacher to know about something that I think you’ve mentioned before, which is self-determination theory? Which is, I’ll just explain it briefly, and you can tell me if I’ve got it right. But self-determination is a theory, is an approach, a way of framing the factors that lead to wellbeing. And there are supposedly three factors, which are autonomy, which is feeling in control, competence, which is feeling good at something, and relatedness, which is feeling connected. Is that right Jason, and how does that influence the teaching?
JG: So there are lots of different perspectives on wellbeing science and the way that wellbeing is theorised. It continues to evolve with scholars and in the academic world. And self-determination theory is a theory that began, I guess, theorising through people’s motivation, but in recent years, has been recognised as an approach to also examining people’s wellbeing. And essentially, self-determination theory is a meta theory consisting of a number of mini theories, and it examines the conditions that facilitate or hinder wellbeing with a particular focus on three basic psychological needs. And as you mentioned, autonomy, which is self-regulating one’s own choices, competency, feeling effective and relatedness and belonging and feeling cared for. And so what this theory proposes is that when these three needs are satisfied, that is when people thrive. But when frustrated, wellbeing suffers. And so I’m also particularly interested in looking at a range of different wellbeing perspectives to understand how learning music can support young people and their educators to flourish.
AH: Interesting. Now we’ve looked at the background and the framing of this. Can you tell me about your research? How did it come about, and what did it involve, and you know, when did it start? Where are you at now?
JG: This particular case study is of an existing community music organisation located in a regional area of Australia. It’s about one hour from the nearest capital city. And just to paint a picture for you, it’s operating from a converted shop front and included a lounge and a session room, a recording studio, a podcast studio, a dance studio downstairs and a kitchen as well. And food was a really important factor of this programme. The staff of this programme were a combination of musicians, creative and social workers. And so already, you can start to see the kind of support provided to the young people involved. Young people connected to the programme through walk ins and peer referrals, social service case workers and other support organisations that were directing people to this programme as having a transformative difference to the lives of those involved. And the programme is also funded by a range of partners, but including a major record label, and this label’s involvement provided financial support, mentoring from industry professionals, and access to its headquarters for a key programme of events, including a graduation ceremony. And I attended one of these graduations. It’s quite moving, because for many of these young people, it was their first ever graduation. They perhaps didn’t finish school that wasn’t part of their life, so it was a very meaningful event for them.
AH: Ah, that’s really interesting. So this wasn’t an in-schools programme. This was very definitely a community education programme.
JG: That’s right. And this programme was offering free afternoon and evening sessions for adolescents, young adults experiencing mental illness, trauma, substance abuse, homelessness, unemployment and social exclusion, potentially and when we’re thinking about community music education programmes, we’re really talking about community music programmes designed by the community, for the community. And I guess a definition that might be useful is that it’s a learning programme facilitated by local community members, operating with and beyond formal institutions in a community setting. And I think what’s really exciting about this context is that, because they’re not bound by accreditation, such as like a school curriculum, for instance, there’s a lot of innovation that gets to go on in these kind of programmes.
AH: And I’m guessing it’s, in a sense, easier to tap into young people’s intrinsic motivation, if that programme can flex around them and their needs.
JG: Absolutely. These young people who are attending the program are there all by choice and because music is the hook that is drawing them in. They’ve got a deep passion and interest and curiosity for music, and that’s drawing them into the programme. And not only are these adolescents and young adults learning about music through informal music, but also life lessons as well. And so sessions would begin with a meal, actually, to bring people together, acknowledging that for so many young people, this could have been their first meal for the day, or at least their first full meal, but also was an opportunity to build community and get young people talking to each other and knowing each other. And then it would move into a jam session, and that would involve community singing, playing, freestyle and hip hop and oh my goodness, the talent that was on show was just incredible. It then moved into a formal life lesson, and this was a different lesson every week that was pre planned, and it covered a range of topics to help young people get their lives on track. So it included things such as budgeting, healthy relationships, how to find a home, how to find a job, how to connect to services beyond the programme itself, such as mental health services or employment services or housing services or Centrelink in Australia, that’s our social services government department. And then, after the life lesson focus, it moved into what they call creative time. And this creative time was an opportunity for young people to work independently or collaboratively on music projects of their choice. And then what happened is that the facilitators, the creative facilitators, would help young people realise these particular projects that they’re working on, ranging from developing their own podcasts to recording their own EPs. And even though the programme is fundamentally about supporting young people and helping them make healthy life choices, through its work, it also has, I guess, launched music careers of young people as well, who’ve gone on to become nationally renowned and celebrated for their musical talents.
AH: Ah, so had that programme been going on for a long time before you started researching it?
JG: That’s right. It has been happening for quite a number of years now. And of course, it’s evolved over time. It is a registered charity, and as all these things do, the programme has sort of taken on different alliterations over time, but it has consistently, I guess, its core business has remained the same. It’s music making a difference and transformative difference to the lives of young people.
AH: So we started this conversation by looking at the academic framing. I guess. The trauma informed practice, the positive education and the self-determination theory, is that academic grounding part of their approach already. So the youth workers, the musicians, the creative leads, is there training around that? Is their background around that? Or is that a lens that you’ve brought to their work through your involvement?
JG: This is something that they were already doing when I arrived, but I think what I’ve been able to offer them is something that is really explicit and perhaps give language to some of the things that they were doing that they may not have had language for before. So in terms of their trauma informed positive education practice, they were principles that all of their staff have been trained in. And it’s interesting before when I mentioned that when they’re recruiting staff, they’re not only looking for creatives, but they’re also looking for people who have experience in social work, and it’s really acknowledging that this programme is, yes, a music education programme, but it’s kind of like music education plus so much more as well. And so all of the staff that were involved really brought, I guess, specialist skills and knowledge, not only in music, but also from outside music. And often themselves, had lived experience similar to those same challenges that the young people were facing. So it could have been that they had experienced trauma themselves as a young person, and they were able to share those stories of triumph and overcoming those challenges. It might also be that the staff have had experience beyond this programme, in a previous situation, working with young people in more of a social work kind of situation, and bringing those skills into the programme. A lot of the young people spoke about this particular programme and the family like environment that it provided, and the facilitators were a huge aspect of that. And I think what I’ve been able to spotlight is the importance of these facilitators. You could take away the staff and just have the physical infrastructure and the resources and other things that they provided, but it wouldn’t have been the same. Is really the people themselves that are involved, that are making it so special.
AH: Yeah, that kind of relationship based practice is so essential, isn’t it for well, actually, for all young people, for all of us. It sounds really similar actually, I should mention to an organisation that I’ve been involved in. I don’t know if you’ve heard of them before, Jason, but it might, might you might be interested to look them up. They’re called The Music Works, and they’re based in Gloucestershire, and it’s sort of similar in the way that very much based around music leaders who understand the young people’s worldviews, often music leaders who’ve got experience in both music facilitating, but also youth work, and then they’ve got an music industry element as well. So that’s the massive appeal for young people. What was known about the impact of the programme before you got involved? Had they done any formal research or evaluation?
JG: I think this may have been perhaps their first time involved in research. And so, of course, if you were a community organisation and a researcher approaches you, you’re probably a little bit wary about what this might involve, and so part of the process actually was developing a relationship with the programme as well. It didn’t happen overnight. We actually met several times over many months, talking about possibilities of what could happen. And even the practicalities of what was involved in the research as well, and particularly ensuring that young people were protected. And so it was really, really important, both for myself and the organisation that we set up the research in a way that really did no further harm. And actually the research itself was an uplifting experience for young people. And that’s certainly the comments that I experienced from those involved, that not only was it, I guess, interviews and observation and other things that were involved, but actually the process of research was really important for the participants as the reflective process, as a really positive reflective process that allowed them to, I guess, look back on how music really is making a positive difference to their life. Not only in terms of the music skills and knowledge they were developing, but its follow on effects to other aspects of their life.
AH: That’s really interesting. I know it’s something that a lot of evaluators are looking at considering in their practice, and have been for a long time, is that idea of not making it extractive for one thing, and also making the evaluation feel like a more natural part of the programme, the actual activity, and then also the people who are the subject of the evaluation gaining benefits from that evaluation. So that’s really interesting. Can you tell me a little bit more about what the evaluation involved and also, what methods did you use to assess wellbeing, or improvements other outcomes, really?
JG: Yeah, so this, this was a case study that used narrative inquiry with arts based methods, and I designed what I’ve called individual narrative share and tell interviews. So in these share and tell interviews, each participant completed three of these, which were 30 minutes each, and it involved some drawing and then also some sharing of music. So what would happen in the interview is that participants would start with an introduction, and we’d be introducing ourselves and sort of catching up. So participants then would respond to a question that was a focus of the interview. And this focus question was responded to through drawing, and this drawing was an opportunity for young people to pause, to process, reflect, and then, I guess, represent their thoughts in a visual way. After they had finished their drawing, there were then follow up questions such as, What does your drawing represent? Why is this important to you? Can you think of some examples that capture these thoughts? And then we moved on to sharing a piece of music, and this was an opportunity for young people to represent their thoughts and experiences through music. And at times, young people shared original music, music that they had created themselves. This was shared through, often, just pulling out their phone and opening up their Spotify channel or YouTube. And it was a really fascinating way for young people to communicate their wellbeing experiences and outcomes, and a way that was developmentally appropriate, but also providing alternative perspectives on their experiences. And I think what is so fascinating is that we’re starting to see not only is music making and music learning having wellbeing outcomes, but it itself is also a wellbeing experience or a wellbeing process. And what I have come to call in my current research, music wellbeing literacy, where music is a wellbeing language for young people and everyone really, to communicate for and about their wellbeing.
AH: Interesting. What were the other findings? What were the other kind of key findings coming out of this research, and what findings could UK Music Educators, or music educators that listen to this podcast and take into their practice.
JG: Firstly, I think what was really fascinating to me is that music functioned as a trusted confidant for self-regulation, and young people were describing music as stable, something that could be relied upon. It was a safe bubble and even a way to escape reality. And there’s one particular quote that stands out to me: friends come and go, drugs come and go, but music has always stayed. And I think it shows how music is more than just a resource. It’s also, in many ways, a relational, a person nearly that people are leaning upon. Another really powerful tool that emerged was songwriting, and it was a way for processing, reflecting and communicating feelings. And as one of the participants put it, it’s just people understand more when it’s in music form. So we spoke before about this connection that music is facilitating. And all of these participants shared this musical love, and they described that they felt less alone because of music and the programme. What was also seen across the programme is these positive psychology strategies, and it was woven in and out through the programme. And it’s interesting. I think I didn’t mention this in the article, but reflecting about it now, I think that because the programme was intentionally founded on positive psychology or positive education principles, and it was just, rather than having to be always thought about, it actually was habitual. It was just behaviour that became a normal way of operating in this programme. So strengths based strategies, gratitude, all of these key positive education strategies just started to occur organically because it was so embedded and embodied in the work of these facilitators.
AH: Ah, right, okay. So I was wondering if that positive psychology and trauma informed practice, and that those behaviours that became automatic, was that amongst the music leaders and also amongst the young people?
JG: What we started to see is that young people started to be influenced quite substantially by the modeling of the teacher facilitators, and so not just musically, not just in life habits, but also in these positive education strategies as well. So a quite standout positive education strategy is gratitude, and that is, it’s basically noticing the little things and really giving attention to it and spotlighting it in a positive way. So one example might be, for instance, Anita, I really like the way that you showed up today, even though that you were feeling really down and perhaps not in the best mood today, but you actually came to our session and actively tried to contribute. That sounds so simple and perhaps so basic, but actually can be really, really important and powerful to someone who’s doing it tough, to know that their effort is valued and their contribution is noticed as well and valued. So that gratitude became part of the wellbeing literacy, or the everyday wellbeing languages that young people were using, not just for music, but also as part of their life. And so really it was this, we’re seeing the transferable effects of trauma informed positive music education across all aspects of life. And I think finally, probably the biggest finding that stood out for me is that the programme took a person first approach and not a music first approach. And this, I guess, disrupts perhaps some of our work in school education, where often it’s focused on the music, and maybe the students aren’t prioritised as much as they could be. And so music was the entry point, but life skills and personal flourishing were the destination in this programme.
AH: Have you considered, or are you looking at how this approach could be used in in-school music? And I realise it is really tricky, because a lot of music educators would feel that this is diluting that learning of a subject. So I’m interested to hear your views on that, and interested to hear about whether you’re looking into how these approaches could be applied in a school setting.
JG: Absolutely. I’m really interested in how innovative practices in community music education programmes can influence and shape the future direction of school music education. And I think through this particular programme, there’s an opportunity for us to recalibrate the purpose of music education. And I don’t think the recalibration is throwing everything out the window and start again. I think it’s actually more about shifting our values and our aims, and we have such a focus in school music education – I’m speaking generally at this point – on professional music career preparation or curriculum compliance. And I wonder if actually we can think about moving towards what I’ve called musical flourishing, and musical flourishing for all meaning that music education that promotes meaningful, joyful and ethical ways of living the world in through and with music for oneself and their communities. And I think some ways that could occur from this particular programme, firstly is adopting a strengths based person first approach. And some questions that music educators might consider is thinking about all the students you teach, particularly those compulsory years levels. What music does this student offer? What music do they make? What can they contribute musically? And so these are questions that it’s really privileging the students and their current positions and working from those. I think as well, not only am I seeing in students of vulnerable settings, but students in all settings that, as we mentioned before, prioritising relationships and belonging is really key, and my research is consistently finding that relatedness, such as trust, connection and a sense of family and safety is the leading psychological need, without a doubt, that is enabling learning to promote flourishing. Linked as well to a strengths based approach, is creating a no judgment environment where students are feeling safe to share, take risks and be themselves. We’re so good in music education at being critical of each other. And I often say to my students at the university, the pre service teachers, it’s so easy to be critical of each other. But can we actually take time to be grateful for each other and actually notice our strengths a bit more? So we keep doing that as well. I think the other thing we can keep thinking about is music teachers, not just being great musical models, but also healthy life models. And what we saw in this programme is that facilitators were not only effective because they were amazing creators and musicians, but because they were also sharing their own stories of overcoming adversity, not just their musical expertise. So this is where we have to start thinking about what is the place of self-care, for instance, and systemic support towards music education and wellbeing coming into place. And I think probably another key finding from this research that has implications for school music is really thinking about reducing or removing expertise barriers to actually getting involved in the first place. So how can programmes create multiple entry points so that young people with little or no prior music experience can still participate meaningfully? And so that was a key feature of this programme, is that regardless of your musical background, you were welcomed. If you had an interest in music, even if you couldn’t play a musical instrument, you were welcomed into this programme. It was music that was the hook that allowed everything else to open up and flourish.
AH: Such a fascinating research programme, Jason, and I’m sure there’s lots of food for thought for music educators, because music educators are already doing a lot of this. I think, though the school system restricts them in certain ways, as you’ve sort of touched on, it feels almost as though the system needs to go back to basics and look at what is music for. It’s like, what is education for, which is something that, for example, in Wales, with a new curriculum, they’ve actually been looking at what is our education system for, and so, and I love your idea of musical flourishing, for all being part of the purpose of music education.
JG: It’s interesting that we’re seeing now across the globe, a re-evaluation on the purpose of education. And UNESCO has actually come out and said the central core aim of education should be human flourishing and this is essentially how people can live well and function effectively in their lives. That is now the central and core aim of education being promoted by global scholars and policy makers in response to a neoliberal agenda of curriculum, particularly towards STEM subjects that clearly is not best serving our young people anymore. And so I think this is where music education has a really important role to play. That we have been seeing all these things for such a long time, but I think through research such as mine and others, were able now to give some language to what we have known for such a long time.
AH: Yes, I mean, music could almost be the kind of model for other subjects, really, in terms of being ambitious about how you can reshape it from the inside maybe? You know, if you don’t have, we do have a review of the curriculum in England, and we’ve had a review of the curriculum in Wales, and now the curriculum for Wales has clear purposes, like to support all children, young people to become ambitious, capable learners, enterprising, creative contributors, ethical, informed citizens and healthy, confident individuals. Fascinating Arts Council of Wales are doing a lot of really good work in partnership with schools and creative practitioners around that. But yeah, I think it feels like music educators have known this weakness in the education system for quite a long time. Maybe they’re the canary in the mine. Maybe they can also be the model for the future.
JG: I think so, and what I find so interesting as well about music curriculum is that in so many jurisdictions, it actually often is written by music teachers themselves, or music teachers have substantial consultation and involvement in how it is shaped and how it eventually plays out. And I think that’s perhaps where we have an opportunity to really sit back for a moment and go, what do we want for our students? What do we want for the next generation? And I think we do need to, as I said, not throw everything out the window, but I think it’s through a reframing or recalibration of the aims and purposes and goals of music education, that we actually can lean into. Music as one of the most engaged activities that young people participate in, second to sport and recreation, music is there as a really important activity that transforms and can actually save lives. And so we think about how music is actually being used and its relevance in young people’s lives, reframing our curriculum around that, instead of career preparation, think that’s our opportunity to move forward with music.
AH: Fascinating and really important work that that all of us have to do in this sector. So finally, Jason, could you share either three practical pieces of advice or three calls to action for others working in music for education, wellbeing, social justice, so things you’d like to see happen in this area in the next few years. So either one of those.
JG: The first for me is, so I’d really love to see a recalibration of the purpose of music education, and I do think this is something that music teachers can do in their everyday practice. Thinking about a recalibration for musical flourishing, where young people have opportunities to live healthy lives in through and with music that are meaningful, joyful and ethically grounded. I think also practical strategies that practitioners can immediately implement in the classroom are strengths based practices. Really thinking about those questions of, what does this student offer? What does this student contribute? What does this student already know in regards to music making and learning and building upon what students are bringing to the classroom already. And really spotlighting and valuing every student for their contribution. And perhaps lastly, what we can do better in music education in schools is look outwards. What is going on in the community? What is going on community music education programmes in our youth orchestras, in our local songwriting programmes, in our whatever it might be, looking out to the community and forming partnerships and extending our work and becoming part of this music ecosystem of support. And it’s kind of starting to position then music education as an allied health practice. It’s something that is occurring alongside all these other ways of healthy living. And I wonder if that’s perhaps the next step in education is that it’s not something that’s in isolation, it’s part of the bigger picture of healthy living.
AH: Thank you. I’m sure people will have taken a lot of food for thought and some obvious practical steps for their own work. So thank you, Jason. And really, best of luck with spreading the learning from your research and the next steps for the research.
JG: Thank you so much for having me. And if listeners would like to reach out, I’m very happy to be in communication with people. And yeah, please keep an eye out for what’s coming. There’s lots of work that’s on the go at the moment, and some really exciting research that’s coming out shortly in regards to learning music and wellbeing.
AH: Thank you, Jason, and I’ll put links and information in the show notes.
JG: Thank you.